Finally tailpipe understand what im trying to say. While some people dont enjoy the 3rd pedal i love the thing. It just isnt the same going from a manual IS to a Auto IS. I hate driving autos now and i think the drive with autos is just boring. Driving a manual on a performance car just lets me enjoy zooming in and out of traffic, up shifting, down shifting your just more involved in the drive of a performance car that way. It takes the fun out of it when you can just stomp on the gas and go. Plus i like rocking the baby at a stoplight with a tailgater on my ass. Their face is priceless.
I don't understand the continual love affair with manual transimissions now that semi-automatic gearboxes exist that can outperform any human. Before the semi-automatic craze, "slushboxes" where derided for their inefficiency and lack of control. Now that semi-automatics exist that make manual gearboxes look like civil war era technology, manual purists still can't give up the clutch. The real reason they won't let go of their security blanket is because they feel "special", as if they've become part of an exclusive club and learned secrets that were once only possessed by the druids of stonehenge. The simple truth: hundreds of millions of people have learned how to drive a manual, including the queen of england (yes, it's true), if you think your special - you're not, so, let go of your stick and learn to appreciate technology.
I think you missed the point of the post from the manual transmission loyalists above. We know that new autoboxes can shift faster than most humans. We know that better performance can be had with them. And that may make a difference if you are a track racer, or a honest competitor. But for most of us, who are doing the saturday morning canyon runs, and who don't have stopwatches glued to our foreheads, it more about FUN than real performance. Theres just something about rowing through the gears, modulating the clutch, nailing a perfect heel-toe downshift, etc, that make the manual so much more enjoyable to me.
And I've driven many efficient automatics, and I've even driven Audi's DSG equipped A3 (which I loved), but it's still just not the same.
It's the same reason that people complain about steering feel/feedback. And it's the same reason that BMW went from their electronic power steering system to their less efficient "civil war era" hydraulic steering system in the Z4 M. Because it offered more feel, and added to the driver involvement.
And yes, I do own a manual IS300, so I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I know most people don't buy manual transmission cars, but Lexus not offering a true manual is genuinely causing a lost sale from me, and has turned me to looking at the Z4 M cope or 335 coupe.
Anyway, I'm really glad that lexus has stepped up to make a performance flagship model. The price isn't bad, and if they do it right they may just steal me back from the dark side (BMW)
I don't think having a manual box has anything to do with "being special" or part of an exclusive club. I've always wanted a manual because I want to know when I want a gear .. ANY gear I can go right to it and keep it there for as long as I like .. .period. I'm always thinking that even on the new semi-auto boxes that the computers gonna step in at some point to "protect" the engine and trans. Besides ... dumping the clutch is so much fun
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The technology question of the day is no longer the vapid, "Where do you want to go today?" But rather, "It's painfully clear where we're going; so, what color handbasket would you like to travel in?"
Well, it sounds like a great car ... I hope that they will make a coupč version too ... I don't know, but four door car with all that power and sport spirit, gives me a strange feel ... I prefer two door sport cars ....
I'll believe it when I see it. Too much of the performance Lexus stuff ends up being vaporware for me to get excited about this yet. And I think the price will be very high for what it is.
The Mercedes C55 was a flop, and I suspect the RS4 will be received with similar enthusiasm. Halo cars are all well and good but at the end of the day the bean counters at Toyota City want to see black numbers for everything the factory churns out.
Toyota doesn't know what they are doing with Manual transmissions. The 5-speed in our IS300 is essentially the same transmission that has been around forever and used is SC300, and previous generation Supras. The 6-speed for Supra Turbo was sourced from Getrag. And now the Semi-Auto for IS500 will also be sourced as well.
The only completely new manual toyota has made in the last decade is the 6 speed used in the Altezza, which is likely similar to the one in the IS250. And they screwed up on this part also. That 6-speed cannot handle the torque of the IS300 or the IS350. In addition, the IS250 6-speed feels notchy compare to the IS300 unit. It all comes back to Toyota not knowing what they are doing with Manual trans. You should be so glad toyota is not actually making a manual for the IS500. Source it out Toyota, especially since toyota tend sto focus on making smooth slush boxes like the 8-speed in the new LS.
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04 Manual: Borla, L-tuned sways, PLP Front Strut bar, TRD Rear Strut bar, CDD and TDD defeat, DRL switch, Headlight Aim control
Toyota is all about volume. Numbers for autos are much higher than numbers for manuals. If only 10-15% of the people buying a car like the IS500 are going to get it in manual, then it becomes a big consideration for Toyota to decide on developing a manual transmission and manufacturing process for the unit. Let's say they sell 10,000 IS500s and 10% of those bought are bought in manual, that leaves 9,000 that are still sold as auto. Now let's say Toyota is making a generous $30,000 profit on each IS500, that means they are making roughly $30,000,000 a year on on the manual IS500 and about $270,000,000 a year on the auto counterparts. Now consider the cost of developing a manual transmission and the cost of putting that into the assembly line and you have to ask is it really worth the $30,000,000. Ultimately, of the 10% who wanted manuals, some of them will cave in and go with an auto so not all of that 10% will be lost. Obviously it isn't that basic because you have to take into account, for instance, that a car like this will bring a different type of buyer to the brand. Those prices are obviously exaggerated and that whole argument probably makes little sense but hell, I'm no econ/business major.
Hmm, if Toyota doesn't know how to make manuals, then I wonder who made the 7 speed transmission used in Toyota's F1 cars ... the trannies that all have "Toyota" written on them
It's not that Toyota can't make a good manual, it's just that they don't see a need for it ... yet. Toyota's engineering resources right now are maxed out. The company is struggling to keep quality high amid such rapid expansion. Offering a manual on a niche vehicle is probably low right now on their priority list. But in a few years, it could be a real possibility.
Hmmmm, so the Lexus 5.0L V8 is the 2UR it seems ... I guess the new Tundra's 5.7L V8 probably will be the 3UR.
SilverF16, I can understand your perspective on this. However, I believe that Toyota has deep enough pockets to produce whatever they want from the greatest of talent pools. Producing a brand new tranny requires research efforts, retooling for manufacturing, and testing. It's a very expensive proposition. Sometimes, it's just easier to use variations of whatever has already been produced or else buy something of the shelf from an expert that has already invested in the above. The W55 and W58 are fine trannies and stand up well to normal abuse. They build in good engineering margins unlike Chrysler and GM trannies of mine that died at 50K miles under normal use, not boosting or nitrous.
It would be fine to me if they called up Getrag and order 100,000 units for their IS500! The Getrag is a very well-designed tranny. Why reinvent the wheel?
Not that 0-60 numbers are indicative of anything, but yeuchau did indeed check his typing skills. The E60 M5 may have a 4.7 0-60, which is phenomenal for a car *that* large and can bury 4 grown adults into their seatbacks. However, the E46 M3 does have a reported 4.7 0-60-- this in a car with 8-10 year-old technology.
Having experienced the many world class manual transmission from Honda including NSX, TSX, S2000, and now the Civic Si, I can't help but be disappointed at Toyota when it comes to development of Manual transmission. For that matter, disappointed with the lack of a true sports cars or sport sedans.
Toyota is all about MASS volume vehicles. We all know that. Hence if you want a car with the total package that caters to the hard core enthusiasts, do you believe that toyota has the experience and heritage to deliver? There are too many conflicting principles between what Toyota values versus design requirements for true sports sedan/cars.
With the IS500, how far will toyota go to make it a true sports sedan? You already read about the power enhancements and uprate springs and shocks What about the following:
1. Will Toyota further reinforce the chassis with additional welds spots, bracing, and strut tower bar?
2. Will they increase the hardness of suspension bushings and increase hub size to decrease defection of these components under severe cornering load, hence providing a more secure direct handling.
3. Will they increase the steering bushing hardness to bring back vibration to the steering wheel and hence offer great driver feedback on road conditions and feel the slight pulses from the engine back to the steering wheel as the drivers revs the engine.
4. Will Toyota reduce the steering assist to increase steering force for better driver feedback of steering forces during mid-corner.
5. Will sport seats with aggressive bolster be available to keep you in place
6. Will Toyota put in stiffer rubber hoses and calibrate the master cylinder to increase driver feel and not have a mushy pedal like the IS300
7. Will Toyota increase the engine and exhaust sound levels so it caters to enthusiasts ears.
8. Will it have an engine with some high revving racing pedigree or it is just a different tune of the same engine found in the new Lexus LS.
9. Will Toyota get rid of the throttle pedal damper spring which introduces throttle delay
10. Will Toyota truly offer a track mode for VDIM? Or at least a kill switch?
11. Will Toyota properly tune the setup of their springs and Shocks for enthusiasts driving so it is not under damped or overdamped in both compression and rebound.
12. Will toyota still have the annoying Brake Assist that gives you non-linear control and engages ABS when you don't want to because you know threshold braking can out brake ABS, at least under dry conditions.
13. Will the A/F ratio still be tuned to a conservative ratio of less than 12:1 ratio under heavy load.
14. Will Toyota put in a LSD to lock both wheels together when you power out from a turn?
15. Will the ABS unit be calibrated with a very high threshold so it does not engage until absolutely necessary. Let the driver control the car, not the other way around.
16. Lastly, will it have a true 6-speed manual transi.
Much of what an enthusiasts desire is contrary to what toyota stands for. An enthusiasts wants feedback, sound, and ultimate control of the vehicle. Toyota is very much about quiet, smoothness, and vehicle internvention over driver control. After becoming a Toyota owner, I've learned that if I wanted some good running shoes, I better head to a Nike or Reebok store and stop admiring that new running shoes from Kenneth Cole.
On the surface level, high performance numbers are a pre-requesit for a sports sedan. On the deeper level, a true sports sedan needs substance. This substance is felt from our sense of FEEL. A driver needs to feel one with the car, hence he has the confidence to dance with the car.
We'll see in due time if Toyota can make a true hard core sports sedan.
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04 Manual: Borla, L-tuned sways, PLP Front Strut bar, TRD Rear Strut bar, CDD and TDD defeat, DRL switch, Headlight Aim control
Last edited by SilverF16 : 06-06-2006 at 08:00 PM.
Reason: Re-formated with paragraphs
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The IS500 will man handle any M3.
