IS350 motor into IS250. - Page 2 - Lexus IS Forum
User Tag List

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 80 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 06:51 AM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutson View Post
Probably easier to have a machinist bore out the is250 engine. From what i can tell it's the same engine with a liter missing and only direct injection.
How is that easier than just getting a 350 that is -designed- for that displacement?

Adding a liter, besides being a huge overbore, would mean much of the remaining engine design (cams, valves, heads, tuning) could need changing as well, and as you note there's a whole set of injectors missing in comparison.
Knightshade is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 80 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 09:35 AM
Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightshade View Post
How is that easier than just getting a 350 that is -designed- for that displacement?

Adding a liter, besides being a huge overbore, would mean much of the remaining engine design (cams, valves, heads, tuning) could need changing as well, and as you note there's a whole set of injectors missing in comparison.
true that..
i think the thought of force induction will be the only way for now..
unless a toyota aurion/ 3,5L camry (US spec) might be another option wat do u guys think about that?
[[d a n n y]] is offline  
post #18 of 80 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 10:33 AM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by [[d a n n y]] View Post
true that..
i think the thought of force induction will be the only way for now..
unless a toyota aurion/ 3,5L camry (US spec) might be another option wat do u guys think about that?
I doubt it would communicate properly with the other lexus ECUs in the vehicle among other issues.

No engine swap can be done properly in an IS250 for less than the cost of just trading it for an IS350.

For that matter, no forced induction can be either.
Knightshade is offline  
 
post #19 of 80 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 03:26 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
           
Whoa, what is everyone so scared about? This kind of attitude is what keeps us with no modifications for our car or improvements if you don't let anyone explore. To the comment that it would be even more difficult to mate the 350 to the 250's manual then it's automatic? I completely disagree? Why would it be more difficult for the computer to work with a transmission that requires no computer to work (manual operation) then with an auto it isn't designed for? Here's another question for you guys. Do you really think that in the factory lexus has a different body for the 250, 350, is-f, or that they are determined during production as to what they will be fitted with? This platform is very interchangeable and as I research I learn this more and more. It seems car companies are getting smarter with interchangeable parts to lower costs which in turn gives us more options. Here would be a good start, IS350 complete engine out of a wreck (motor, harness, fuel injection system, computer, everything). Transplanting that, and assuming it bolts up to the IS250 manual transmission (which it should considering it has the same bell housing). You should be able to get engine to run even if it thinks the transmission is missing. From that point you would have the joy of getting someone to crack the computer and disable the various features your car won't have. Have fun, if you don't try it, someone else will; shoot i'd love to the first to swap it. Watch out IS-F for the 350 manuals!
TI-IS250MT is offline  
post #20 of 80 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 06:26 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
interesting insight

anyone have any idea what the going rate would be for an IS350 engine/tranny

including harness/ecu etc

probably be looking to sell mine soon
cfrost is offline  
post #21 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-01-2008, 05:37 AM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
Whoa, what is everyone so scared about? This kind of attitude is what keeps us with no modifications for our car or improvements if you don't let anyone explore. To the comment that it would be even more difficult to mate the 350 to the 250's manual then it's automatic? I completely disagree? Why would it be more difficult for the computer to work with a transmission that requires no computer to work (manual operation) then with an auto it isn't designed for? Here's another question for you guys. Do you really think that in the factory lexus has a different body for the 250, 350, is-f, or that they are determined during production as to what they will be fitted with? This platform is very interchangeable and as I research I learn this more and more. It seems car companies are getting smarter with interchangeable parts to lower costs which in turn gives us more options. Here would be a good start, IS350 complete engine out of a wreck (motor, harness, fuel injection system, computer, everything). Transplanting that, and assuming it bolts up to the IS250 manual transmission (which it should considering it has the same bell housing). You should be able to get engine to run even if it thinks the transmission is missing. From that point you would have the joy of getting someone to crack the computer and disable the various features your car won't have. Have fun, if you don't try it, someone else will; shoot i'd love to the first to swap it. Watch out IS-F for the 350 manuals!
For one, the ECU can't be cracked.

They haven't even cracked most of the functions on the Supra ECU and that car is over 15 years old at this point...and the ECU on the IS is -way- more complex.

Many of the functions of the ECU are physically burned onto the PROMS so you'd need an electron microscope to even read the programming to begin with, before you even thought about how to change it. Then you'll need to crack the encryption that nobody has touched in all the years toyota has been doing it. Then you'll need to not tell anyone to avoid the DMCA lawsuit from Toyota.

So the engine will NOT run properly, probably not even at all, when it noticed half the powertrain it's expecting to help control doesn't exist.

For another, the cost to do the swap will be considerably more than just swapping the car for one that COMES WITH THE ENGINE TO BEGIN WITH.

And for a third, if the manual was capable of holding the power, and was simple to swap, then Lexus would be offering it as an option in the first place.

The fact they don't strongly suggests you'll kill the transmission even in the unlikely event you got the engine to even run without a transmission it's looking for.

And then there's still the fact the ECU would also be looking for the missing VDIM components too.

Seriously, the reason everyone is against it is it's a really dumb idea that simply won't work.

Oh, and the IS-F -does- have a different body. That's why the fenders and other parts don't interchange. The IS-F engine is larger so they had to make room for it.


Oh, and last I knew, the engine alone was over 10k...I'm sure it'd be less from a wreck, but probably not a TON less, certainly not the full powertrain. That's not counting labor or probably most of the wiring and accessories you'd need too.

Whereas the 250->350 cost difference is like 3-5k.
Knightshade is offline  
post #22 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-01-2008, 10:30 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
           
1. Lexus not making a IS350 manual simply because its not possible?
-Laughed alot on this one, great assumption.

2. You act like we're modifying the 350 engine here?
-The computer will run the engine, yes the transmission and some VDIM control are missing, but I'm willing to put money that there is some way to fool the computer into thinking its in neutral or something or maybe it will run regardless as these control are auxiliry to the engine controls.

3. IS250 manual transmission will not hold the addional power.
-Again, great assumption, i'm pretty sure the thing will hold up to a 90/100 boost in hp/tq.

4. Wheres the spirit? I don't want you to think about all the reasons you can't do something, start thinking about ways you can.

5. "Seriously, the reason everyone is against it is it's a really dumb idea that simply won't work.

Oh, and the IS-F -does- have a different body. That's why the fenders and other parts don't interchange. The IS-F engine is larger so they had to make room for it."

Wow, so you think you can't source these IS-F parts and make them work on an IS350/250? Doesn't that mean they are interchangeable? You think its such a dumb idea and not realistic to swap an engine who not only shares a platform, but has the same bell housing and is a brother to the 250 engine? I've seen alot more unrealistic swaps completed. Your automatics bore me, i'd rather spend another 10 grand then trade into a slush box.
TI-IS250MT is offline  
post #23 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-01-2008, 04:59 PM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
1. Lexus not making a IS350 manual simply because its not possible?
-Laughed alot on this one, great assumption.
Yes, because you didn't understand what was said.

The manual in the IS250 is a crappy manual. It probably won't hold the power of the 350.

I'm sure they could -make- a new 6 speed manual that worked...for a large cost they'd never earn back because like 6 people on earth would buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
2. You act like we're modifying the 350 engine here?
-The computer will run the engine, yes the transmission and some VDIM control are missing, but I'm willing to put money that there is some way to fool the computer into thinking its in neutral or something or maybe it will run regardless as these control are auxiliry to the engine controls.
And you'd be wrong.

You don't understand how complex a modern car is. There's a number of ECUs in the vehicle, that all need to communicate with each other for the car to work properly. That's part of why using a standalone wouldn't work. The engine ECU expects assorted feedback from the transmission. It expects it to respond to signals it's sending and vice versa. If it's not there the engine ECU won't work properly, if at all.

I have no idea what you think you could make that would "fool" the ECU...the problem is, neither do you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
3. IS250 manual transmission will not hold the addional power.
-Again, great assumption, i'm pretty sure the thing will hold up to a 90/100 boost in hp/tq.
Then do you have any explaination for why they don't offer it that way? If it would just drop in then it'd cost them nothing extra to offer the option, and they'd make money on those 6 people who want it that way.

The only explaination that makes any sense is it won't hold the power and they don't want to spend a fortune inventing a new transmission. (I assume you know the manual in the 250 is from a toyota, Lexus didn't come up with that one either).


Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
4. Wheres the spirit? I don't want you to think about all the reasons you can't do something, start thinking about ways you can.
Why would I want to think of ways to do something that makes no sense? You'd spend 2-3 times more than just buying the actual car that came with the engine would cost, and you wouldn't gain anything except a broken manual that didn't run right ever.

I also won't think of ways to poke myself in the eye for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
5. "Seriously, the reason everyone is against it is it's a really dumb idea that simply won't work.

Oh, and the IS-F -does- have a different body. That's why the fenders and other parts don't interchange. The IS-F engine is larger so they had to make room for it."

Wow, so you think you can't source these IS-F parts and make them work on an IS350/250? Doesn't that mean they are interchangeable? You think its such a dumb idea and not realistic to swap an engine who not only shares a platform, but has the same bell housing and is a brother to the 250 engine? I've seen alot more unrealistic swaps completed. Your automatics bore me, i'd rather spend another 10 grand then trade into a slush box.

No, you continue to not undertsand.

THEY ARE PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT CARS.

The IS-F is wider to fit the larger V8 engine.

Source an IS-F fender. Try to put it on your 250. It won't physically fit.

So no, that would make them the opposite of interchangeable.

Not sure how much clearer that could be.


Oh, and here's -another- reason it's stupid.

The manual gets -significantly- worse mileage than the automatic, AND it'll be slower and the dragstrip.

So instead of spending 3-4k on just getting a fully working, fully warrantied, IS350 you want to:

Spend $10,000+ to put the 350 engine in a 250 manual so you can:

Go slower.
Get worse mileage.
Not run correctly (if at all) to begin with.

And you don't understand why nobody thinks it's a good idea?

Really?
Knightshade is offline  
post #24 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-02-2008, 05:10 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
           
Wow, you are just a little automatic 350 fan boy aren't you? You act like you know everything and every result when in reality you haven't experimented or researched anything. If the IS-F is indeed wider, then my bad thats a very interesting peice of information. 250 Manual getting worse millage is bull shit, and the EPA ratings are simply incorrect as I have driven both. My Manual has gotten up 32 MPG on long highway trips, I have had multiple 250 auto's for rental and they consumed more gas no doubt and didn't reach the same numbers on the highway trips. There is less loss in a manual you can't argue that. Theres nothing wrong with the manual tranny in this car either, so you writing it off as a peice of shit means nothing to me as well. You sir are negative and want to tell everyone why something won't work and to be happy with the factory offerings. In the end there is no point in responding or discussing this point any further because your attitude supports a non-innovative discussion which I have no interest in.
TI-IS250MT is offline  
post #25 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 12:06 AM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
Wow, you are just a little automatic 350 fan boy aren't you? You act like you know everything and every result when in reality you haven't experimented or researched anything. If the IS-F is indeed wider, then my bad thats a very interesting peice of information. 250 Manual getting worse millage is bull shit, and the EPA ratings are simply incorrect as I have driven both. My Manual has gotten up 32 MPG on long highway trips, I have had multiple 250 auto's for rental and they consumed more gas no doubt and didn't reach the same numbers on the highway trips. There is less loss in a manual you can't argue that. Theres nothing wrong with the manual tranny in this car either, so you writing it off as a peice of shit means nothing to me as well. You sir are negative and want to tell everyone why something won't work and to be happy with the factory offerings. In the end there is no point in responding or discussing this point any further because your attitude supports a non-innovative discussion which I have no interest in.
I'm not sure why you say I haven't researched anything when I've given you detailed info on all the things that make your idea one of fail, and your answer is continually "why are you so negative?"

So ok, go ahead and drop 10k+ to end up with a car that doesn't run... I fully support you in this... best of luck!


(and yes, the manual gets the worst mileage of any IS...the RWD manual is even worse on gas than the heavier AWD 250.... the transmission is pulled from a toyota truck as an afterthought, it's clunky, and honestly not very good).
Knightshade is offline  
post #26 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 01:49 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
           
I will ignore the ignorant comments about the efficeny being better in an AWD car or automatic. The transmission is the same series as that in the tacoma which has a larger V6... this is not the same exact trasmission and is specific for this car. I honestly don't care what you think it will cost or that you feel it will not run when done? Your comments on a transmission saying it is weak and then that it is designed for a truck is contradictive. A transmission designed for a truck with a larger engine and presumed to be under a larger amount of stress and load would be able to handle the power, no? Were you not enthralled by the IS430 that was created and how quick that car became? This swap WILL work, regardless of if you think it won't, and in the end even if $10,000 is invested; the resulting car would be a one off manual IS350 that would be fast, light, and im sure a blast to drive.

Oh, and on a side not, do you even own a manual IS or have you even driven one or seen the internals, clutch, flywheel etc? I have a stage 3 clutch and lightweight flywheel that I just had designed and I can tell you that these parts are very oversized. The flywheel was as large as the supra TT and the clutch is very similar as well. When I went into the deal I expected to find a much weaker setup for a stock sports car with a low power v6. The shuddering and noise issues of the stock flywheel and clutch setup are simply because the flywheel is huge and dual mass, and heavy for a much higher horse power car; the clutch has a fun time dealing with such a heavy setup with such little torque behind it, hense the need for higher spring rates in the F-sport clutch that was released. In the end, dropping some 22 pounds out of that flywheel/clutch setup has yielded a interestingly fast car that now loves to rev. On top of that the transmission clunking and noise into 2nd are gone and the gear box feels solid. Anyways, I'm just saying this transmission can hold some power and is by no means undersized for the car.

Last edited by TI-IS250MT; 08-03-2008 at 01:58 AM.
TI-IS250MT is offline  
post #27 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by TI-IS250MT View Post
I will ignore the ignorant comments about the efficeny being better in an AWD car or automatic. The transmission is the same series as that in the tacoma which has a larger V6... this is not the same exact trasmission and is specific for this car. I honestly don't care what you think it will cost or that you feel it will not run when done? Your comments on a transmission saying it is weak and then that it is designed for a truck is contradictive. A transmission designed for a truck with a larger engine and presumed to be under a larger amount of stress and load would be able to handle the power, no? Were you not enthralled by the IS430 that was created and how quick that car became? This swap WILL work, regardless of if you think it won't, and in the end even if $10,000 is invested; the resulting car would be a one off manual IS350 that would be fast, light, and im sure a blast to drive.

Oh, and on a side not, do you even own a manual IS or have you even driven one or seen the internals, clutch, flywheel etc? I have a stage 3 clutch and lightweight flywheel that I just had designed and I can tell you that these parts are very oversized. The flywheel was as large as the supra TT and the clutch is very similar as well. When I went into the deal I expected to find a much weaker setup for a stock sports car with a low power v6. The shuddering and noise issues of the stock flywheel and clutch setup are simply because the flywheel is huge and dual mass, and heavy for a much higher horse power car; the clutch has a fun time dealing with such a heavy setup with such little torque behind it, hense the need for higher spring rates in the F-sport clutch that was released. In the end, dropping some 22 pounds out of that flywheel/clutch setup has yielded a interestingly fast car that now loves to rev. On top of that the transmission clunking and noise into 2nd are gone and the gear box feels solid. Anyways, I'm just saying this transmission can hold some power and is by no means undersized for the car.

So you're saying I'm wrong that the stock manual sucks... but you had to have a custom flywheel and stage 3 clutch installed to make it not suck.

Anyone else see the problem with that?

The tacoma 4L V6 by the way only has 236 horsepower... a bit less than the 306 in the IS350. It even has less torque, despite being a truck.

Truck doesn't magically mean "way more power than a a car"

It won't work. You have no idea how the ECUs work, or talk to each other, and no idea how to fix the problem. What you're doing here is insisting that "it's an exciting idea, stop pointing out reality!" which is just silly.

And yes, the manual gets the worst mileage of any IS. According to me, accprding to the EPA, according to the results posted by drivers of both cars here and on CL, and according to Lexus themselves.

If you'd like I can name you a dozen -other- cars that all get worse mileage with a manual than an automatic too... most of them performance cars of some sort (audis, BMWs, a caddy CTS, the RX-8, etc)

The clutch pedal is a relic of the past. Modern automatics are vastly improved from their ancestors.
Knightshade is offline  
post #28 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightshade View Post
The clutch pedal is a relic of the past. Modern automatics are vastly improved from their ancestors.
maybe if you're just driving your car to and from work

but the clutch pedal, for me, makes driving fun.. still lets me feel connected to the car.. and most of all gives the DRIVER more control over what the car is doing and when it's doing it

there's so many more factors that make manual trannies better from a driving/fun to drive standpoint

if you're not looking to control your car completely and all you want to do is cruise, then by all means.. auto trannies are great!

but come on, lets not call it a relic of the past, it just sounds like its not your cup o tea
cfrost is offline  
post #29 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 12:21 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
           
Your automatic is no sports car. Maybe if you had an IS-F or an smg or anything with a quick shifting transmission that is actually remotely fun to drive I would agree with you. Manual being a relic of the past? Take the manual transmission out of the picture and a could percentage of the enthusiests would be devistated. You my friend have signed over to the slush box. I will continue to row my own boat until some robot running off 1,000 computers tells me I can't. And don't tell me I don't know about ECUs or the ones in this car or the failsafe features etc. We haven't been using carbs since the 80s buddy; yeah the systems have become more advanced but don't act like we all haven't been dealing with it the last 20 years.
TI-IS250MT is offline  
post #30 of 80 (permalink) Old 08-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Extremist
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
           
That's great.

But modern autos and manumatics like SMGs are the future.

Even porsche is running faster times at the track -without- a 3rd pedal these days.

I mean, there's folks who like AM radio too, but it doesn't make it better.
Knightshade is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Lexus IS Forum > 2nd-Gen IS250/IS350 > Go Faster

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Lexus IS Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. If your address is invalid, you will likely lose access to the site.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Current users viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome